It snowed yesterday in KC and I stayed in out of the wet and cold - so I had some time to spend out in blogworld. I had an interesting chat with Bruce, Geo and Steve at YBMT? The chat was about Bruce's assertation that fear is the lifeblood of the church. My counter to his assertation is that love, not fear, is the lifeblood and much of the church does acts of love for the poor. You can catch the converstion
here. I'd be interested in your feedback and whether Geo was correct when he called me a sanctimonious ass ... he could be right in the context of that discussion.
WOW! I spent about 15 minutes reading the dialog. Bob, you communicated love, calmly and you never backed down from that. I saw each of them become hostile and even immature (i.e. Bev's comment). I understand how some people have anger towards "the church" but when they use such gross generalizations "ALL" churches are "bad"....that scares me.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Barbara. I am ALMOST speechless. Although "sanctimonious" refers to piety - the connotation is that you think yourself better than others, something I saw blatantly in bloggers other than yourself on this post.
ReplyDeleteI would have backed out after your first apology - don't know if that's right or not, but it became more of a feeding frenzy than a discussion at that point!
Thanks for the feedback Barbara. I wish I could have had some dialog ... I felt misunderstood :(
ReplyDeleteI agree with Missy about backing out ... I should have let it go ... even a fool is thought to be wise when they keep their yapper shut :)
KB - I am a hypocrite. I had to go back and comment myself. Please forgive me.
ReplyDeletethis was not the first time you have talked down to people on Bruce's Blog Bob. I remember one other time when I told you that you were very condescending in your comments and you agreed and apologized. And I would not expect your friends here to feel any different than you do. After all you are the pastor and have the keys to the kingdom. I am sure all of this is one big internet misunderstanding. As blogs and email are such an imperfect way of communicating. I am sure that if we met face to face things would be different. But things are as they are and I still see you as Righteous and Holy as do I all of God's People. My opinions mena nothing as neither doyour's. The only opinion that matters is that of our Saviour and Redeemer Jesus! And above all things he sees us as TOTALLY Righteous! That is THE GOOD NEWS. This will be my last post on this topic and I hope you keep commenting on Bruce's Blog and that our disagreement will not cause you to stay away.
ReplyDeletePeace
Geo
Barbara, just where did I, Bruce or George make the statement that “all churches are bad”?
ReplyDeleteAnd you know nothing about my "immature" wife Bev or what she has experienced at the hands of the clergy of today.
WHOA...Bob...just got here from there. That was....sad.
ReplyDeleteNah...you were fine, and your questions were valid--remember, I'm pretty much on the no-church bench.
I get why you're in a church (and yours looks great) and you get why I'm not in a church. You're open-minded and you've humbly shared your journey from fundamentalism, so, no, you're not a sanctimonious ass.
And, Geo. Geez. You've lumped us all together here, you call Bob a sanctimonious ass, and then you mock him. You mentioned that he's apologized in the past. How about you?
I, too, found the dialog very interesting. And I have mixed feelings about it.
ReplyDeleteI know a lot of people like SteveW and Geo, who are disillusioned with the church. More often than not, that disillusionment is justified. The church is messed up. We've got a lot of problems. We don't focus enough on restoration, if you ask me, nor do we focus enough on love. Once I had my eyes opened to that, instead of leaving the church I stayed and tried to spur on change.
As far as your concerns about being called a sanctimonious ass, it did seem so when you made this comment "Geo, I didn’t think you had any ideas about loving the poor … thanks for confirming it". As for the donation thing, that seemed more like an open wound from SteveW more than anything else.
I don't know you, Bob, nor do I know any of them. I saw some miscommunication on both sides, and one things I hate about the internet is due to the anonimity, people feel as though they can make any kind of remark and not have to face the backlash. It's the people like you, who genuinly seek out opinions, that are few and far between. You've never struck me as the type to think yourself better than others, but the above comment I quoted of yours did rub me the wrong way. But so did some other other comments (they just didn't ask for opinions on them, but that's neither here nor there.)
Just trying to give you an outsider's position. Defending the church isn't easy when we've made so many mistakes. It's the fighting to make it better and not giving up on the church is what gives us that rough road sometimes.
Okay, I guess I'm having a problem with justifying calling anyone names when the subject is LOVE! :-)
ReplyDeleteAnd, Geo. Geez. You've lumped us all together here, you call Bob a sanctimonious ass, and then you mock him. You mentioned that he's apologized in the past. How about you?
ReplyDeleteNo I do not. That was my true feelings and I have no need of anyone agreeing with them.
That being said I am sorry that we cannot be open and honest about how we feel. Bob and others are free to express how they feel and so should those who disagree be free to but alas as in all institutions when we are open and honest about our feelings we are then told we are unloving and unkind! Very sad.Only open honest dialog with real emotions can develop true friendship. It is only when we are free enough to let others see our other side that we can know if we are accepted. I can tell you that no matter what anyone thinks here or on Bruce's Blog you are accepted and I affirm your freedom to disagree and to even name call as I did if that is your true emotion at the time.
Peace
Geo
Thank you Stephanie for the insightful feedback. I read the post you linked to (it is a great read) and especially liked this:
ReplyDelete"Leaving’s easy. Leaving means you get to find the church you want, the church that does the kinds of thing you enjoy, the church that make you happy. Notice how many times the word “you” was written in the last sentence."
In retrospect, as you indicate, I should have left the conversation early and not gotten caught up in the offence ... I should not have slammed Geo on that one reply ... I entered into the folly and I am sorry that I did.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Hello Geo .. since you are following this dialog I need to tell you that I should not have slammed you saying I didn’t think you had any ideas about loving the poor ... I was offended and should not have spoke out of my offence ... taken me a few days (and Stephanie's comment) to see what was going on. So, please accept my apology for speaking to you in a hurtful manner.
ReplyDeleteBlessings to you, Bob
If you remember, KB, I spent a little time over there myself last year and promised never to go back.
ReplyDeleteI have spent most of my blogging years debating with hardcore atheists who have no reason to be respectful other than their own desire to be kind. And when the debates got heated there was always a respect between us. But the debates over at YBMT lacked the respect and human kindness that my atheist friends showed.
No...I see no need to go back.
But let me also add this:
I do feel blessed to have been able to discuss things with Bruced from YBMT. He displays respect and reason without being condescending no matter what website I see him on.
Thanks fo the comment DK. I echo your comments about Bruce.
ReplyDeleteMan. Ouch. YMBT is generally, or so I thought, a fine blog. Sometimes people don't know how to dialog. Sometimes those accusing others of self-righteousness don't realize which side the accusation really falls on.
ReplyDeleteYou've generated a lot of discussion here, Bob, and it's been excellent. Your humilty is something I appreciate - and I knew it would appear, which is why I didn't fear stating my opinion to you last night. And thank you for the nice comments about my post.
ReplyDeleteI need to take a second and practice some humility.
ReplyDeleteIt was Societyvs who was the respectful one, not Bruced. (Sorry, my friend...I didn't mean to include you among the insulting ones.)
Steve,
ReplyDeleteI did not say your wife was immature, I don’t even know her. I said her comment was. She told Bob to get his panties out of a wad, to me that was an immature thing to say and didn’t really communicate much.
As far as saying “all churches are bad” No, you didn’t’ come out and say that but it was implied – unless I misunderstood, if that’s the case, I apologize.
Hey KB (and friends :-)
ReplyDeleteI too read most of the comments, though they got a little repetitive and I started skimming.
I would be willing to bet that if ya'll had been face-to-face, none of this would have happened. It's hard to feel a heart of love through a blog-interface. I see why they reacted, though you were a long way from being sanctimonious. You came right at them, and when they started reading your comments with their soundtrack the situation became hopeless. Face-to-face, this doesn't happen. In the blogosphere, it's really hard to prevent.
Of course, I quit going over there because they consider rudeness a legitimate debate tool. I have never once felt insulted, even by your rebukes.
Thanks for being Kansas Bob!
Geo,
ReplyDeleteI affirm your freedom to disagree and to even name call as I did if that is your true emotion at the time.
You know, I probably would have accepted this sentiment 20 years ago, but no more. Courtesy is the lubricant of society. Without it, bad things happen. The gears tear each other up, instead of allowing power to be transferred smoothly between them. We need each other too badly to be alienating each other through a simple lack of self-restraint.
May the Lord bless your future discussions.
CP, you got right to the heart of it:
ReplyDeleteI would be willing to bet that if ya'll had been face-to-face, none of this would have happened. It's hard to feel a heart of love through a blog-interface.
The guys over at YBMT? are all about my age and I think that we have more in common than not. I'd love to do a meal or coffee with them.
Glad to hear you say that KB. Couldn't agree more. You just can't look deeply into the eyes and the heart of a person who passionately loves Christ through blogging.
ReplyDeleteCodepoke, I'm sad you see us as rude....but I'll bet that too would change in a face to face.
Grace & peace to you all.
Wondering if any of you all might be interested in dialoging about difficult topics at a place I call Sanctimonious Bob?
ReplyDelete